Curse

Str0b0 · Feb 28, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

No that article was a mistake in judgement and an apology should absolutely be rendered here. You don't just apologize for mistakes you apologize for offense, whether it was intended or not or whether you agree with it or not, particularly if you are in the business of customer relations and service. It's so basic that even the sixteen year old kid manager at McDonalds knows how to do it. You acknowledge the problem, you apologize, and you fix it. In this instance an apology is the only fix needed for this. One thing you do not do is try to take the high ground. Even if when you say I'm sorry what you really mean is " I'm sorry you are such an idiot you took issue with this." I don't care if it is a superficial apology. It would be better than this " It's not us it's you" stance that they chose to take, which is more insulting than the article itself since it minimalizes the feelings of a significant enough portion of their player base.

This stance is hurting more than it is helping and the more they stick to their guns the more they are going to alienate these people who are already feeling as if they got left out to dry.

Alleji · Feb 28, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Gaile, you're paying too much attention to this thread. (5 posts, OMG!) I think there are some scrubs in LA int1 crying about being unable to stack old and new dyes, go pacify them. Shoo.

Lonesamurai · Feb 28, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

As for the gap between PvP and PvE - its moot. GW PvP is dying. Koreans left. Americans are half way. Europe will eventually join IMO.

Nah, i think we're about to see the second coming of Guild wars...

At least I'm hoping so, or I'm gone

Winstar · Feb 28, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

No that article was a mistake in judgement and an apology should absolutely be rendered here. You don't just apologize for mistakes you apologize for offense, whether it was intended or not or whether you agree with it or not, particularly if you are in the business of customer relations and service. It's so basic that even the sixteen year old kid manager at McDonalds knows how to do it. You acknowledge the problem, you apologize, and you fix it. In this instance an apology is the only fix needed for this. One thing you do not do is try to take the high ground. Even if when you say I'm sorry what you really mean is " I'm sorry you are such an idiot you took issue with this." I don't care if it is a superficial apology. It would be better than this " It's not us it's you" stance that they chose to take, which is more insulting than the article itself since it minimalizes the feelings of a significant enough portion of their player base.

This stance is hurting more than it is helping and the more they stick to their guns the more they are going to alienate these people who are already feeling as if they got left out to dry.

All the hurt feelings are basically a the result of confused mass hysteria generated by the people in this thread. This article WAS NOT a mistake and I havent seen a bloody thing in any posts to indicate why it might be other than the repeated claim that people are angry (why I still dont know). This means the percieved wrong is just that, a very subjective feeling that has been fostered by a lot of thoughtless ranting (think mob of south park citizens). In this case it would be like asking MCdonalds to apologize for the term BIG MAC because it seems to insinuate that the people buying them are fat. Maybe its good corperate policy to say sorry for such things, who knows. But on a much more important and non superficial level there is NO apology needed and you really need to stop being so lame.

Str0b0 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

At this point it doesn't matter why all that it matters is that it's not just me, or me and one other guy. It's a whole bunch of people who are ticked off about this thing. That says something right there. If it was just a handful of people on one forum it would be different but we are talking about a significant portion of players from several forums. The fact of the matters is that The article offended people, more than just a few people. It doesn't matter if the reasoning is off or if there is no logic behind them taking offense. In other words the reasons behind the phenomenon are immaterial all that matters is the event itself. You deal with the event not the reasons behind it. I know I'd be fired right now if I took that same stance with an offended client or group of clients, particularly if they weren't asking for any sort of compensation aside from an apology.

I can see your arguments. I don't agree with them and I still think the article itself is insulting. My point is the time for debating whether or not the article is offensive is passed. People got offended and now it's time to make that right and smooth it over. If they aren't willing to do that they have lost my business and I will not offer any favorable word of mouth either.

Drazaar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

To respond to Winstars response to me.

I still echo I think its not an outragous cry for some people to want an appology.

I myself was a bit upset with it and found myself grinding my teeth a bit when I read his article for reasons I stated and echo now: Not what he said but HOW he said it. Sure there was good tibits of info but ultimatly it was lost in the impression he left to many on how he was saying it.

I say again an apology is fair cause a large number of people were in fact upset to a much greater degree then I was(I found it midly annoying but shrugged it off thinking he wasnt the first wont be the last and how Ive probably done similar issues to that).

Im gonna further Stobos example since I happen to be one of those young McDonalds managers well studying to become a carpenter.

When someone comes to me with say there Burger wasnt what they wanted and/or there food is cold. We take that food and make there burger right and make sure its all fresh and out of vats and grills and all to make them happy. We also, depending on the severity of the issue will mostly hand them a free pie or give em a refund of there meal well giving them the fresh and right order. But to make it better and what te customer really wanted in this scenario is acknologment that we screwed up and apologise. Generally the famous words to the incredibly irrate and upset I say is "Im really very sorry we screwed up on your meal, heres a fresh order to what you wanted. Im really sorry". Youd be surprised at how saying that to someone that was in a bad mood with a raised aggresive voice, near or at yelling sundenly calm down and more often then not I hear in return "Its ok" or "Dont worry about it. mistakes happen".

Or there is times when a customer has in fact misintereted a joke an employee tried to make to liven the mood or just something in the convo. They get upset from this joke/oppinion and what do I and the employee say to this customer. "Im sorry we upset you. It wont happen again". Guess what, problem solved before it became something real bad.

Another example I will be faced with when im a full carpenter and not a student is as an example say we shingled a roof but somethign bad happened along the way we didnt know about. We get a call, there roof is leaking there upset. What do we do. We apologize on the phone to them and go out promptly to fix the problem at our expense in an ASAP manner and again apologise to the home owner about how we screwed up and caused him this inconvience.

This article personally to me didnt make me lose any sleep or hours in the game but I can CERTANLY see where the outcry is comming fom and can see and agree to the need of an apology in some honest form.

Whats more upseting and disheartning to me is the aloof nature that has been returned to those outcrying and upset with the whole "quit yer bitching" attitude. That is not a fair attitude to take and only makes the issue worse and further strengthens and makes the present rift between the 2 W communities stronger and worse.

I can be as proud and stubborn as I want and it can get right up there to bad, but the thought of how some people have such a hard time admiting a mistake or even just apologizing to someone cause you offended them still shocks me. :s

Chris Blackstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

All the hurt feelings are basically a the result of confused mass hysteria generated by the people in this thread. This article WAS NOT a mistake and I havent seen a bloody thing in any posts to indicate why it might be other than the repeated claim that people are angry (why I still dont know). This means the percieved wrong is just that, a very subjective feeling that has been fostered by a lot of thoughtless ranting (think mob of south park citizens). In this case it would be like asking MCdonalds to apologize for the term BIG MAC because it seems to insinuate that the people buying them are fat. Maybe its good corperate policy to say sorry for such things, who knows. But on a much more important and non superficial level there is NO apology needed and you really need to stop being so lame.

Tipical British reaction, face it everything to brits is a joke anyways, that is why they don't even get offended at jokes that insult the royal family. "Bloody well absub, I say, those dam yanks. Always pissing into the wind, when there feathers are ruffled" Sound familar Winstar?

Well here in the states, things are a bit different, any company that deals directly with the public, weither it be the press, politics, corporations, if a comment or article is taken out of the original context that it is meant for, then it is politicly correct to offer an apology and retract it to save face with the public.

Winstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

At this point it doesn't matter why all that it matters is that it's not just me, or me and one other guy. It's a whole bunch of people who are ticked off about this thing. That says something right there. If it was just a handful of people on one forum it would be different but we are talking about a significant portion of players from several forums. The fact of the matters is that The article offended people, more than just a few people. It doesn't matter if the reasoning is off or if there is no logic behind them taking offense. In other words the reasons behind the phenomenon are immaterial all that matters is the event itself. You deal with the event not the reasons behind it. I know I'd be fired right now if I took that same stance with an offended client or group of clients, particularly if they weren't asking for any sort of compensation aside from an apology.

I can see your arguments. I don't agree with them and I still think the article itself is insulting. My point is the time for debating whether or not the article is offensive is passed. People got offended and now it's time to make that right and smooth it over. If they aren't willing to do that they have lost my business and I will not offer any favorable word of mouth either.

I have to disagree. The logic and reasoning behind the feelings is what is most important. If a person is not willing to take some time and seriously examine why they feel as they do, and as a result to take appropriate action then there is a problem. I agree that one cant help ones immeadiate reactions in many cases and they cant be faulted for that. BUT one can take 2 minutes and examine why they feel like they do and if they are overreacting then they can realize this, calm down and deal with it. If they arent overracting then they can take the appropriate course of action in the face of the injustice. This is thread is a case of the former not the later, and it is the responsibilty of people as mature adults (or people becoming so) to at least try and use your brain instead of simply being tossed around by their emotions.

If youre going to push your weight around by playing the youre not getting my business card then go for it, and maybe on some commerical level you have a right to. But on a more important level you are in fact being lame.

Str0b0 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I've had 24 hours to think this over. I think the article itself was presented in a condescending manner. I think the target audience for it was talked down to, by that I mean PvE'rs who have gotten to level 20 and more than likely to at least one high end area. Basically people that already know the stuff the article addressed. That position and the material presented created an atmosphere of condescension. I think that Anet, while certainly not responsible for the content, should have exercised more editorial oversight given the nature of the community and how polarized it is. I have examined my reasons and I find no flaw in them. Granted a lot of it is subjective but then again when we are talking about bruised feelings we're talking about a subjective thing in the first place. That being said I don't think I'm being lame if, after sleeping on the issue and examining it, I feel the same level of offense.

The lukewarm response from Anet to this hot button issue has not helped matters any at all. From a customer service stand point alone their reaction and handling of this matter has been horrendous. As a loyal customer I feel I have been mistreated and my complaints marginalized and that is bad business no matter how you look at it, particularly when I, and many others, are not demanding any sweeping change to the product, we're not asking for anyone's head on a plate, and we aren't asking for any sort of compensation. All we want is an apology and their stubborn refusal to do that is just making a bad situation worse.

Winstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Tipical British reaction, face it everything to brits is a joke anyways, that is why they don't even get offended at jokes that insult the royal family. "Bloody well absub, I say, those dam yanks. Always pissing into the wind, when there feathers are ruffled" Sound familar Winstar?

Well here in the states, things are a bit different, any company that deals directly with the public, weither it be the press, politics, corporations, if a comment or article is taken out of the original context that it is meant for, then it is politicly correct to offer an apology and retract it to save face with the public.

LOLOLOLOL

I am not british. Im Canadian old chap, so perhaps I should say things like this,

Hey, wuts the big deal, eh. I cant see what all the fuss is aboot.

Anyway...

I realize that in our cooperate society that it has become politically correct to make an apology for any possible offense absurd or otherwise to the public for whatever the percieved harm might be. Fine push for your apology. At a more important level I hate this fact about our society and I think it reflects the worst of the Karmer suing the coffee company for spilling coffee on his lap mentality. This thread also reeks of groupthink and hysteria generation.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 28, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

At this point it doesn't matter why all that it matters is that it's not just me, or me and one other guy. It's a whole bunch of people who are ticked off about this thing. That says something right there.

Yeah, it's called a rioting mob.

Look, that guy is taking that television from the store window, I'm not the only one!

Look, let's go on a witch hunt and burn people at the stake! I mean, a lot of people feel scared, it must be the devil and his coven of witches!

Yeah, after a mob gets going, little else does matter until it has spent itself out.

Chris Blackstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

LOLOLOLOL

I am not british. Im Canadian old chap, so perhaps I should say things like this,

Hey, wuts the big deal, eh. I cant see what all the fuss is aboot.

Anyway...

I realize that in our cooperate society that it has become politically correct to make an apology for any possible offense absurd or otherwise to the public for whatever the percieved harm might be. Fine push for your apology. At a more important level I hate this fact about our society and I think it reflects the worst of the Karmer suing the coffee company for spilling coffee on his lap mentality. This thread also reeks of groupthink and hysteria generation.

LOLOLOL

I coundn't agree more, I guess we found our common ground on the issue.

As my Assie friend use to say, "It's water under the bridge, let it flow down stream into the falls of time."

Winstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drazaar

To respond to Winstars response to me.

I still echo I think its not an outragous cry for some people to want an appology.

I myself was a bit upset with it and found myself grinding my teeth a bit when I read his article for reasons I stated and echo now: Not what he said but HOW he said it. Sure there was good tibits of info but ultimatly it was lost in the impression he left to many on how he was saying it.

I say again an apology is fair cause a large number of people were in fact upset to a much greater degree then I was(I found it midly annoying but shrugged it off thinking he wasnt the first wont be the last and how Ive probably done similar issues to that).

Im gonna further Stobos example since I happen to be one of those young McDonalds managers well studying to become a carpenter.

When someone comes to me with say there Burger wasnt what they wanted and/or there food is cold. We take that food and make there burger right and make sure its all fresh and out of vats and grills and all to make them happy. We also, depending on the severity of the issue will mostly hand them a free pie or give em a refund of there meal well giving them the fresh and right order. But to make it better and what te customer really wanted in this scenario is acknologment that we screwed up and apologise. Generally the famous words to the incredibly irrate and upset I say is "Im really very sorry we screwed up on your meal, heres a fresh order to what you wanted. Im really sorry". Youd be surprised at how saying that to someone that was in a bad mood with a raised aggresive voice, near or at yelling sundenly calm down and more often then not I hear in return "Its ok" or "Dont worry about it. mistakes happen".

Or there is times when a customer has in fact misintereted a joke an employee tried to make to liven the mood or just something in the convo. They get upset from this joke/oppinion and what do I and the employee say to this customer. "Im sorry we upset you. It wont happen again". Guess what, problem solved before it became something real bad.

Another example I will be faced with when im a full carpenter and not a student is as an example say we shingled a roof but somethign bad happened along the way we didnt know about. We get a call, there roof is leaking there upset. What do we do. We apologize on the phone to them and go out promptly to fix the problem at our expense in an ASAP manner and again apologise to the home owner about how we screwed up and caused him this inconvience.

This article personally to me didnt make me lose any sleep or hours in the game but I can CERTANLY see where the outcry is comming fom and can see and agree to the need of an apology in some honest form.

Whats more upseting and disheartning to me is the aloof nature that has been returned to those outcrying and upset with the whole "quit yer bitching" attitude. That is not a fair attitude to take and only makes the issue worse and further strengthens and makes the present rift between the 2 W communities stronger and worse.

I can be as proud and stubborn as I want and it can get right up there to bad, but the thought of how some people have such a hard time admiting a mistake or even just apologizing to someone cause you offended them still shocks me. :s

Thanks for the well written response,

I have to agree that if there was a serious injustice done, then there is a right to demand an apology. I have no problem with that. I think in general customers have a right to demand better from companies. BUT I also think there is a more than that going on in this thread.

I have to reiterate something said before by many people. This article is clearly not directed at people who know better but at people who dont. I dont think its ambiguous in any way. But this thread has been a hysteria generating machine for anyone looking for a reason to complain about the topic of PvE v PvP. Its been this way in every thread on this topic EVER on this website. There are strong feelings here about this topic and they were present and raging before this article ever hit the website.

Drazaar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I dont think its mob hysteria so much as 2 strong oppinioniated groups clashing.

I think its gotten fairly bad but it seems to pick when you see the PVP is better or PVE is better attacks in there varying forms in this thread.

Hell all you have to do to create like 4 pages right now real fast is same something like "PVPers are arrogant jerks" or somethign equally inflamatory and over generalised about PVE.

But if you look through those inflamatory dung heap piles you do find those bits of honest gold and they do have similarities.

The flaming unhelpful bits aside BOTH sides say yeah he had some good points but the offended side is adding, and fairly and rightly so that he really made those points come out in the wrong way and in a way that a mass majority of the "apposing side"(which is not an over exageration)feel upset and offended to.

There feelings are fine and legit not lame and im pretty damn sure this wont be the last time somethign like this happens either and when it happens it could again happen to the PVEr side or it might happen to the PVP side that time.

However its not fair or right to simply dismiss the upset with a "quit yer bitching attitude" in whatever form you choose for those words be the polite and sugar coated or blunt and to the point. What matters is to acknowledge that hurt partys feelings and make honest attempts at making amends that show you trully listened to there complaint, took it to heart and trully want to dispell there upset feelings and truly make it water under the bridge.

People can forgive and forget or let bygones be bygones but you need to show them an honest reason why to follow that path and get rid of the ill feelings there now harboring from the offence or hurt. You cant simply tell them to quit there bitching and expect it to be so. It only makes the matters worse.

lennymon · Feb 28, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Heh, It's quite simple the article sucked in some way (when ISNT there some little issue?). Now many folks are trying to cash in on that as if it were a personal affront. I think you got that dead on Winstar.
Big deal, so the article didn't speak to you and make you want to cheer. It's just an article. The pve/pvp rift is wider now than it ever was, it's hard for new folks to get into higher end pvp since the older hands want to win. It's a natural progression, and understandable. This article (and in fact NO article) can ever hope to correct this state of affairs. If you really hate the article, write one of your own and send it to Anet as a resume. Then folks can whine about your writing.

Winstar · Feb 28, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drazaar

I dont think its mob hysteria so much as 2 strong oppinioniated groups clashing.

I think its gotten fairly bad but it seems to pick when you see the PVP is better or PVE is better attacks in there varying forms in this thread.

Hell all you have to do to create like 4 pages right now real fast is same something like "PVPers are arrogant jerks" or somethign equally inflamatory and over generalised about PVE.

But if you look through those inflamatory dung heap piles you do find those bits of honest gold and they do have similarities.

The flaming unhelpful bits aside BOTH sides say yeah he had some good points but the offended side is adding, and fairly and rightly so that he really made those points come out in the wrong way and in a way that a mass majority of the "apposing side"(which is not an over exageration)feel upset and offended to.

There feelings are fine and legit not lame and im pretty damn sure this wont be the last time somethign like this happens either and when it happens it could again happen to the PVEr side or it might happen to the PVP side that time.

However its not fair or right to simply dismiss the upset with a "quit yer bitching attitude" in whatever form you choose for those words be the polite and sugar coated or blunt and to the point. What matters is to acknowledge that hurt partys feelings and make honest attempts at making amends that show you trully listened to there complaint, took it to heart and trully want to dispell there upset feelings and truly make it water under the bridge.

People can forgive and forget or let bygones be bygones but you need to show them an honest reason why to follow that path and get rid of the ill feelings there now harboring from the offence or hurt. You cant simply tell them to quit there bitching and expect it to be so. It only makes the matters worse.

I never failed to acknowledge anyones feelings. I said that those can't be helped. All I ask is that we examine them carefully.

I agree completely and have stated clearly that I think this thread simply claws at underlying PvE v PvP tensions that have been present in every thread ever on this topic. I think the underlying emotions are clouding peoples judgements on this article and creating a degree of hysteria that is unwarrented given the article.

I think that this is at worst a not so useful article. New PvP players need better information than this even though most of it is correct. I don't think this is scathing condescending criticism of every PvE playing in the game. All I ask for is a little perspective, and there is nothing wrong with that given that this thread has quickly generated into a giant flaming snowball of fury without much warrant.

Drazaar · Feb 28, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Sure writers in a sense are in a lose lose situation when they write an article if we want to look at things pesimisticly. However its not always as bleak and confrontation/plroblematic as our current situation if certain steps and considerations are taken right?

I mean, probably not the best example but someone could possibly write an artical about how they like to eat babies get in thar bella! And so long as there aware there about to enter a controversial section in there artical and take proper precautions to avoid offending. Offending could be avoided all together. People would dismiss, agree or think funny the artical, but take offence could be dismissed to an almost literal non existence.

Articals to summerize them have 4 parts: Introduction, Opening argument, Closing argument, Conclusion.

In regards to the article that has caused this problem if we look at it he did a fairly good job. Going from top to bottom:

Conclusion was fine overall. Was what it should be, closure. Opening and Closing arguments were ok, albite a bit scetchy at times but overall you could walk away from them since they were oppinions of argument.
However I think where the problem resides is in the most important part of an artical. The introduction. It was in there people started and fairly so taking the over generalization that led to all this mess. The rest of the artical gets lost cause by then your reader is upset. There no longer reading to enlighten themselves to wisdom there reading "to see how much more ignorant this jerk is". So suddenly his tibit on skills no longer become examples(even though they werent that great, aka: the mending one) they become gasoliene to the fire of hate.

It is because of this were in this problem now. The intention as I honestly believe was never to insult the other half of the Guild Wars community(the PVErs), however he did give that impression ingraned into the PVErs brains.

Well foolish or not if you take the time to think on it you can see where the misinterpretation can come from. I believe even Gaile has admitted to the areas that can and have become the problem we have now, and they are fair to misinterpret into the fashion of upset anger theyve gotten. I go back to my bad joke theory on this.
You say a bad joke it upsets someone well others around you laugh. However out of your group of 10 9 are laughing but 1 is offended/upset. Its only poliete to apologise to that 1 and when you pop another funny out become more aware to the upset guy and try to change the joke around in a fashion where it doesnt lose its origional meaning or intention but also doesnt upset that 1 guy this time.

I think thats what people want to see and its fair to see that.
They dont want some inpersonal disclaimer. Just an honest attempt for the guy to say "I dont mean to offend if I do im really sorry".

Perhaps a solution to this is for the future instead of placing the inpersonal disclaimer stamp have your authors write it personally in ther articals as they go. Like somethign so simple that if there about to enter a "controversial topic area" in there article they write it somehow that hey they dont mean to offend if there wording comes off as that well your reading there artical then there sorry they never ment it that way. If you have somethign like that in your artical then when the reader reads that well reading your artical as there entering your controversial area they will automatically have it ingraned that instead of becoming angry and irrate they will re read to see if they can see the wording in another light and thus avoid situations were in now.

At least thats my oppinion

Str0b0 · Feb 28, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

While I can't disagree with the point that the Pve/PvP rift is at the core of this matter I don't think it is really the salt on the wound. The Pve/PvP rift is an established thing in this community and I think that the real factor in this whole debacle is that they went ahead and green lighted this when anyone that has spent any time in these forums would have told you that this article was going to cause a problem.

The article can be perceived as offensive, it was perceived as offensive. It shows a gross lack of insight into the community that they helped to build and to make matters worse they refuse to offer even a simple public apology. I gave Arena Net more credit for knowing their customers. I mean they have a presence on the forums, they listen to suggestions and I've never had a problem with the way they handle things until now. This is just uncharacteristic of their community relations and I'm frankly baffled as to why they are baulking at this issue. Still the fact remains that personally, as a consumer, my mind is made up and I will not purchase anything form them until they apologize and I will urge my friends, coworkers, and customers to not purchase NCSoft or ArenaNet products as well.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 28, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

The "issue" is that there actually is no issue except what people are forcing to be an issue.

The article is being used as a scape-goat by posters that believe that PvP and PvE are somehow at odds with each other. And, this is not the subject of the article in any way, shape or form.

Quote:

When you have accidently or unaware that your oppinion/action/words hurt someone, the decent thing is to say some of the most powerful words to mending broken relations. "Im Sorry"

That's lame. I mean, really lame.

So, if I demand you apologize to me for making that ridiculous statement, will you do so? It hurts my feelings that you and everyone else doesn't agree with me, I want an apology dammit!

Saying "sorry" when it is "forced" doesn't do anything but give the people that bullied for the apology a raging boner.

Gli · Feb 28, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Geez guys, get a grip. So it wasn't a very good article. Check. Nobody spit in your drink or called your momma fat. Give it a rest.